2:00:28 PM

Harris

Call to order.

 2:00:33 PM

Harris

Commissioner Ken Welch is otherwise engaged and won't be able to make our meeting, but we need to begin with Mr. Pound and need to have everybody state their names so that the Clerk can get your correct names for the minutes; we'll start with you, Greg. 

Identification:

Greg Pound;  Paul McClintock, Pasco Council; Reverend Bruce Wright, Refuge Ministries, Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council.

 2:00:34 PM

Plyer

Are the people who are speaking, are they members of the board?

 2:01:49 PM

Harris

That's what I just said, Dave.  That’s exactly what I said and if you would just identify yourself and worry about those things that you are responsible for.  Thank you.

 2:01:52 PM

Plyer

 Dave Plyer, representing the Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council, member of the board.

 2:01:53 PM

Harris

 Thank you.

 2:01:54 PM

Identification continues

Lavetta Waters, Department of Juvenile Justice, Community Partnership Coordinator.

Corry

Shouts from the audience:  Not a board member

Identification continues

Tony Leisner, WorkNet Board Treasurer.

Plyer

Not a board member.

Harris

Mr. Leisner is a new board member.

Plyer

No, Mr. Leisner is not…

Harris

He is a new board member.

Corry

Shouts from audience violation of the statute

Plyer

Elected by the, appointed by Pasco County?

 2:02:02 PM

Harris

 No.  If you will read your agenda you will see that there…

Plyer

See what where?

Harris

and when we get to that point you will all get to vote on it.

 2:02:12 PM

Plyer

Absolutely not.  There are laws concerning the appointment of members to this board (bangs on table) and this person as pleasant as he may be and as uninformed as he may be about the politics here, is not yet a member of this board.  He has not been appointed by either Pasco County Council or the Pinellas County Council and he is not a statutory member.  So, for those reasons he is not a board member.

 2:02:40 PM

Harris

Thank you, Dave.

 2:02:44 PM

Wright

Excuse me.  If I can concur with that he is not a board member because he has to be appointed according to statute by both one or the other, the Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council Board or the Pasco County.  Now, if he is appointed by Pasco, then we need to know, but otherwise if he is coming from Pinellas County he cannot be appointed without the approval of the Council appointing him, and you know that, sir.

Plyer

It’s the law.

 2:03:11 PM

Harris

If you would read your By-laws, according to the By-laws, the board can be expanded in certain areas and those appointments don't have to come from either one.  And we talked about this at the last meeting and…

Plyer

Moot point.

Harris

Would you let me finish, please, sir.  We talked about this at the last meeting.  We said that we were going to expand our board and we were looking for two areas:  from labor, and he certainly is coming from the WorkNet board, and then it said those under-represented areas, and we are still looking for people from the provider community.  Now, I don't know what that's so difficult to understand.

 2:03:49 PM

Plyer

 What is difficult to understand is that at the last minute you were going to send we motions to DJJ for their approval, to look at it to see if it was legal.  Then, those motions to expand the board, to term limits, would be then moved and approved, seconded, approved, discussed, given that the board was presented with sufficient time to review the proposed changes.  Nothing in those motions, nothing in the statutes gives you or the executive committee of this board the authority to appoint anybody.  So, before you embarrass him further you might get that clarified.

o

 2:04:42 PM

Harris

Well, before you embarrass yourself further you might read your agenda where we will eventually get to that where you will get to vote on Mr. Leisner.

 2:04:46 PM

Plyer

Then he is not a member of the board at this time.

 2:04:48 PM

Corry

Shouts from the audience: This is not the corrupt Pinellas County Board of County Commissioners...

 2:04:54 PM

Unidentified

Shouts from the audience: Under what authority? Under what statute...read us the statue...

 2:05:01 PM

Identification continues

I’m Martha Lenderman.  I’m appointed here by the Pasco Council and a member of the board.  Tim Niermann, Department of Juvenile Justice; Teri Simpson, Pasco Juvenile Justice Council; Lt. Barbara Taylor, Pasco County Sheriff, Pasco Board; Norm Roche, Pinellas Council Board;  Raymond Gross, Circuit Court; Vance Arnett, State Attorney's Office.

 2:05:36 PM

Harris

Okay.  We do have a quorum.  We have minutes from our last meeting.  The Chair will entertain a motion...

Corry

Shouts from the audience, Who are the other absent members?  Where was the roll call?  There’s other absent members.

Plyer

Who is not present today?

Corry

Shouts from the audience, Just follow the darn rules, that’s all you have to do.

Unidentified

From the audience, I have kids that said they didn’t want to come because they didn’t want to see adults break the law…

 2:06:04 PM

Harris

 Is there a motion to approve the minutes? 

Lenderman

Move approval.

McClintock

Second.

 2:06:15 PM

Plyer

 I have corrections.

 2:06:21 PM

Wright

 And I have questions about the minutes.

 2:06:23 PM

Harris

 Well, we can only have one of the talking heads speak at a time...Reverend Wright?

 2:06:24 PM

Wright

 According to this, it says, and I quote, in our New Business, that a proposal to increase the size of the board would be considered.  Not that it's been done.  And that it was to be, according to these minutes, checked out according to state statute and the Department of Juvenile Justice.  Unless it's been checked out according to state statute and by the Department of Juvenile Justice, then it is not appropriate to even consider adding more to the board.  This is in our own minutes here that we discussed this.  So, I want that noted in the record that this was discussed at the last meeting and that this cannot be done unless those two things have been done.

 2:06:27 PM

Harris

 Thank you.  Mr. Plyer.

 2:07:18 PM

Plyer

Okay, corrections to the draft minutes of the Circuit 6 Juvenile Justice Board meeting of July 16th.  Item 1.  Page one, title, beneath the date July 16, 2007, add the word "draft" followed by the name of the author and the date the draft was written.  Item 2.  On the list of members present, remove the name Lieutenant Barbara Taylor.  Item 3.  Page two, Welcome Call to Order Quorum Count.  End of the first sentence, to the words "whereupon Mr. Plyer requested a roll call," add "which was denied by the Chair."  Item 4.  Page three, Pinellas County JJC Report.  First paragraph, line four, replace the words "and a letter regarding Chairman Harris from the Pinellas County JJC" with "a letter demanding a written apology from Chairman Harris for his despicable behavior towards the Pinellas County JJC."  Item 5.  Page Six, Public Comment:  End of the sentence replace "Reese Stearns expressed his concerns" with "Ryis Stearns asked the board to apologize for insinuating that he would shoot up a school.  There was no response from the board."  And that concludes my corrections.

 2:09:12 PM

Harris

Well, we don't take those as corrections; those are suggestions and if you want to pass those in, you can pass those in.  We will entertain a motion to approve the minutes...

 2:09:20 PM

Wright

Those are corrections, sir...

 2:09:13 PM

Plyer

As corrected...

 2:09:22 PM

Taylor

May I inquire as to why I am taken off the list?

 2:09:24 PM

Plyer

Because at the last meeting you were found not to be a board member.

 2:09:30 PM

Harris

No, she is a board member.

 2:09:33 PM

Taylor

I believe I was found to be a board member.

 2:09:40 PM

Plyer

This is a record of what happened at last meeting...

 2:09:49 PM

Harris

Mr. Plyer, one of the things you are going to have to understand is that you are not the fount of knowledge or the keeper of everything that's true and great and honest, and we are going to conduct business whether you and your hand-picked band of...obstructionists...we are going to conduct business…

 2:10:08 PM

Wright

Okay, are you getting this John, if you're going to refer to me that way, excuse me, this is my legal observer and you are going to hearing from my lawyer...thank you.  You are being disrespectful to us...

 2:10:19 PM

Harris

 Okay, we've got a motion to approve; and (to Lt. Taylor) you are a member and you will be included in the minutes and you are supposed to be here today because you are appointed and you are a member of the Pasco Council.  All in favor of the minutes? 

Corry

Shouts from the audience, She was not a member at the last meeting

Plyer

As corrected, as corrected, as corrected…

Lenderman

That is not my motion.  Aye.

Harris

Those opposed.  Several nays.  Okay, let's do a hand.  All in favor of the minutes, would you raise your right hand please; seven in favor; all opposed to the minutes as presented, raise your hand; four opposed..  The minutes stand approved.   Now we’ll go to the council reports and we’ll begin with the Pinellas Council.

 2:11:14 PM

Plyer

 Before we move on, I would like a roll call vote.  I am entitled to it as a member of the board and I would like a roll call vote.

 2:11:24 PM

Harris

 You certainly are.  To Ms. Lenderman, would you call the roll for...

 2:11:32 PM

Waters (roll call)

Mr. Paul McClintock - Aye

Ms. Teri Simpson - Aye

Hon. Calvin Harris - Aye

Ms. Martha Lenderman - Aye

Mr. David Plyer - Nay

Rev. Bruce Wright - Nay

Mr. Greg Pound - Nay Mr. Norm Roche - Nay

Mr. Vance Arnett - Aye

Hon. Raymond Gross - Aye

Lt. Barbara Taylor - Aye 

 2:12:31 PM

Harris

So the ayes have it; motion passes 7 to 4 in favor.  Now, we'll have the Pinellas Council Report from Mr. Plyer.

 2:12:32 PM

Plyer

Susan Biszewski-Eber resigned from the Circuit 6 Juvenile Justice Board.  She emailed her letter of resignation to council chair Dave Plyer on July 30, 2007.  Ms. Biszewski-Eber, Director of Middle School Programs YMCA of Greater St. Petersburg was appointed to the board by the Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council on October 26, 2006.  The Council, at its next meeting, is scheduled to appoint a new member to the Circuit 6 Juvenile Justice Board to fill this vacancy.  In addition, the Council is also scheduled to elect its officers for the coming year.  The Council has not yet received a written apology from Circuit 6 Juvenile Justice Board Chair, Calvin Harris, for his despicable behavior towards the Council.  The next meeting of the Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council is Thursday, September 27, 2007, at the Seminole Community Library.  For more information about the Council, visit its website at PinellasJJC.org.

 2:13:56 PM

Harris

Any questions?

 2:14:00 PM

Roche

I was inquiring earlier about Mr. Waller and his involvement or lack of presence at the board, and what I was recommending was that if indeed we have one resignation, a vacancy, and Mr. Waller is unable to participate in this board, that that be counted as two and then, pursuant to the discussions earlier about representation, that perhaps we seek two from the Pinellas side, representation of labor and representation of a provider, to fill those two spots which might down the road lend itself to not even needing to expand the board if we can get the appropriate representation that we're seeking on that board.  So that would be my input and perhaps recommendation.  I don't know if it's a recommendation or what have you perhaps filling those two spots with what we’re seeking to get that balance might help towards in that way.

 2:15:09 PM

Plyer

The Council is in contact with Mr. Waller to see what his intentions are.  He does not report to the Council. He has no affiliation with the Council.  The Council simply appointed him to the board in the hopes that he would bring a new pair of eyes, ears and mouth to the board.  He has not attended and so we are exploring what his plans are.

 2:15:41 PM

Roche

Would he have to be removed by virtue of by-laws by the board in order for that vacancy to happen or is it something that you would, or in other words is it something that we would in other words is there protocol...

 2:15:52 PM

Harris

Yes, there is; in the by-laws.  And since he has never attended a meeting and he in essence is not a member because he would be removed for never attending and...

 2:16:11 PM

Lenderman

I can remember...was it consecutive?  I think it was consecutive…

 2:16:18 PM

Harris

And not only has he never attended but he has never in any way indicated that he couldn't come but that he had an interest in attending so for all practical purposes that is a vacancy and Ms. Eber did resign but the resignation, I mean she has never attended so...

 2:16:44 PM

Corry

Shouts from the audience, She has too attended.

 2:16:45 PM

Roche

So that would make two vacancies existing right now?

 2:16:49 PM

Harris

Yes, for the Pinellas Council.

 2:16:50 PM

Plyer

No, not at the moment.  We have one vacancy.  The board has the option, at this meeting I would suspect, to remove Mr. Waller as a board member for lack of attendance.

 2:17:05 PM

Roche

But is it your assertion that perhaps out of just common courtesy we're waiting to hear from him?

 2:17:23 PM

Plyer

Well, he has been asked for his opinion, I'm deferring to my...to Wright, have you talked to him?

Wright

No, I have not heard.

Plyer

We have not had contact with him.

 2:17:26 PM

Harris

But he is a Pinellas member so we are not, maybe if we spent some of our time instead of waiting for apologies that are not coming, we could find members and find out why they are not there, but we are not going to remove them.  We will let them determine whether or not it's important for their members to come to the meeting.  We are not going to do that.  But, even if, the members that we are talking about adding are not according to the by-laws they don't come under the Pasco or the Pinellas.  They are elected members and so we can add those.  The by-laws say that.  We can't just be selective in our reading of the by-laws.  You’ve either got to accept them or you don't.  You can't, because the same people now who are saying "Well, Tallahassee ought to say that" used to come to these meetings and say "Well, we're independent.  We don't need them to say whether we can do these things, but whether, regardless of that, the by-laws say we can add up to three members from underrepresented areas and they one member from labor and so that is our intention, and so we have one of those members, we have one of those members here today and you will have the opportunity to vote on that.

 2:18:47 PM

Pound

I would like to make a motion that we remove Waller for nonattendance.

 2:18:53 PM

Roche

I would second that.

 2:19:00 PM

Harris

Is there any discussion?  Now, Mr. Plyer, you said that you are still trying to communicate with him, right?

 2:19:07 PM

Plyer

That is correct and we have not received any response.  He understands the situation, but it is the board's prerogative to remove him for that.  That is a decision that the board as a whole can take, I believe, according to the by-laws.

 2:19:09 PM

Harris

Yes... The board, we are not in any hurry to do that.  If you want more time to communicate with him, then maybe Mr. Pound will withdraw his motion.

 2:19:41 PM

Plyer

Thank you.  We'll give him one more chance and I will convey to him that the board is now considering…

 2:19:48 PM

Pound

David, I really think he should be withdrawn, I mean he hasn’t been here…

 2:19:59 PM

Plyer

Okay.  I'll take that back.  It is Mr. Pound's motion.

 2:19:59 PM

Roche

Call the question.

 2:20:05 PM

Harris

All right, we have a motion to remove Mr. Waller and let us do a roll call again on that motion.

Waters

Vance Arnett - aye

Judge Gross - nay

Lt. Barbara Taylor - nay

Ms. Teri Simpson - nay

Hon. Calvin Harris - nay

Ms. Martha Lenderman - nay

Mr. David Plyer - nay 

McClintock

Would you restate the motion please?

Harris

The motion is to remove and I think what everybody is saying is they would like to give the council the opportunity to communicate with him.

Roche

If I withdraw the second, will that…

Harris

Well, we’ll just vote on it.  We’ve already started it now so we’ve got to complete it.  Okay.  Mr. Plyer, she was at you?

Waters

Dave Plyer repeats – nay

Rev. Bruce Wright - nay

Mr. Pound - yea

Mr. Norm Roche - nay

Mr. McClintock – nay

 2:20:39 PM

Harris

So the nay's have it.  Mr. Waller will not be removed by action of the board and the Pinellas Council will now have the opportunity to communicate with him and find out what his intentions are.

 2:22:07 PM

Lenderman

If they appoint someone in the interim they could take that seat as of the next meeting, is that correct?

 2:22:17 PM

Harris

Yes.  Is there anything else from the Pinellas Council?

 2:22:22 PM

Plyer

That's all the council has to report.

 2:22:23 PM

Harris

Mr. McClintock, are you giving the Pasco report today?

 2:22:27 PM

McClintock

As unprepared as I am, I'll make an effort.  We did have the meeting on the specified date which I don't have in front of me.  It was about two weeks ago on a Thursday, but we did not have a quorum so we couldn't decide or meet or vote or anything and in any case we decided as a group that we would make an effort to have better attendance.  That happened also to be the first Thursday of school and most of our, a lot of our council members are school board members or working for the school board.  That completes Pasco County.

 2:23:12 PM

Harris

Okay, are there any questions for Pasco County?  Okay, Mr. Niermann.

 2:23:22 PM

Niermann

I think I want to take our time at least the DJJ probation community time, to talk a little bit this afternoon about the Blueprint Commission.  I think a number of you may have heard about or gotten some information on it.  I have a couple of handouts here for us.  We're pretty fortunate in the Circuit that we actually have two members from Pinellas County on it.  I'm going to pass out the make up also.  But, the bottom line with the Blueprint Commission is that they're holding a series of basically six hearings throughout the state, and they've already started.  The first one was in Fort Lauderdale and the next one coming up is going to be in Jacksonville on September 25th and 26th.  We're going to have one in Tampa, Hillsborough County, on October 29th and 30th.  Each of the Commission hearings, or meetings, I don't think they're really hearings, well maybe they are hearings, but anyway the bottom line is that they are going to have a focus and a topic which is part of the handouts that I sent to you and then they're also going to take public commentary.  And they're tweaking them each time they have them.  The one in Fort Lauderdale started around noon time, they went through the expert to talk about the topic and they started taking public commentary around 3:00 or 4:00 p.m. and it went on I believe until 8:00 at night.  They are time-limited so everyone can have a voice in it.  I would encourage everyone and anyone that's interested to try to make a point to attend.  I'm going to pass out the make up of the commission.  We have from our Circuit which is Pinellas Pasco County, Judge Irene Sullivan is a sitting member and also the Director of Human Rights for the County, which is Mr. Leon Russell, so we have some folks.  If you can't make the hearings you can certainly try to put a phone call in to our two representatives and they're only two of 25.  They have a real varied assortment of people on the commission.  There is a meeting in early October in Orlando and then the one closest to us is at the end so if you have an opportunity I strongly urge you all to go.  You know, we have various different opinions even in the room here today about how well the system does or does not work and so this will be a golden opportunity.  Right on the heals as we know in early October the Legislature meets again for a special session to reduce I believe the minimum of $1.1 or $1.4 billion from the state budget so again, there is some early indication that unfortunately DJJ is going to take a chunk of the hits again which is projected to be $39 million and there's some various...it's in there and we took a significant reduction in 2001 which resulted in the position we lost state-wide around 650 positions along with a number of contracted dollars back then and unfortunately it looks like we're going to take a good chunk this time again.  It's extremely difficult to maintain whatever level of services we have, whatever opinion you have of us, when they keep reducing funding.  The Senate I believe was looking at an across-the-board reduction of a certain percentages and the House of Representatives was looking at what they call targeted so some departments or agencies could take a greater share.  Right now, according to the St. Pete Times, and I'm not sure where they got their facts but the last article they reported on was that higher education, the State Universities and Community Colleges, and DJJ is kind of like at the top of that ladder of reductions.  So, again I think this would be an opportunity to come and give some input.  State employees like myself and a couple of others in the room, we don't have the ability to lobby.  We're not lobbying, we're just saying please come and give some input.  Along with the budget, they're also talking about some of our practices and procedures and the ways we do business.  If there are some things that don't make sense to you, please come and give the commission your opinion.  These only come along every once in a while.  When we formed our department in 1994, we had a similar process, a lot of input from the community and stakeholders, and this I think is going to be the second great opportunity that we have.  Secretary McNeil's committed to hearing ideas.  There's a number of statutes on the books right now that we have no funding for, we really can't enforce.  Judge Gross deals each and every day with a myth called home detention.  If a youth does not have a probation officer, there really is no home detention but it's a legal status in the statutes.  So, it's frustrating to everyone around.  It's frustrating to the parents, it's frustrating to the Courts, it's frustrating to DJJ and the kids, you know, don't really have anyone looking after them closely.  So, it's really not a good message for them, too.  So, please take this opportunity.  We have some notice here.  It's the end of October so we got some time yet.  So, if your schedule would permit it, I encourage you to become involved.

 2:28:55 PM

Wright

How was the Blueprint Commission determined who'd be on it and I'm curious, I did see a youth representative which is great but I didn't see a parent on there, though.  But maybe I'm not reading it right.

 2:29:06 PM

Niermann

Bruce, every Circuit provided some input as to who we've got that would be good for it and then the final decision was a headquarters decision; I can't tell you the exact personnel who made final decision but there was, you know, people could nominate themselves, there were some I believe that the rosters of all the councils and boards were sent up and so on and so forth.  I don't know how the exact how the final decision was made.

 2:29:26 PM

Wright

Thank you.

 2:29:36 PM

Lenderman

I was just actually going to go back and ask about the budget cuts.  I’ve  heard, now this is only anecdotally, the bad news is DJJ is getting cut much more deeply as a result of sparing certain other programs, but within DJJ my understanding, again good news and bad news, is that the prevention/early intervention programs have been dealt much more gently on it in terms of the CINS/FINS, that sort of a thing.  I mean, that's good news.  I'm just sorry it's been at the expense of other essential services, too.  Can you give us any more information on how you think that's going to fall out given what we know today?

 2:30:22 PM

Niermann

What I will do is so I can talk with authority because I didn't bring them all along with me this afternoon is I will email that over to Lavetta and she can send it; out to the board members each area, I know from just what I can recall, and sometimes when you recall from memory it's not always perfect, but they were talking about as far as staffing reductions, the bulk of those staffing reductions are coming in the detention branch where they're talking about the closing of two detention centers, one is in Key West and one is in St. John's County which is between Jacksonville and Daytona Beach.  That comes out to the equivalent of about 72 positions.  In a number of the other areas there's been a number of dollars targeted towards the contract side.  I know for instance, we got a huge initiative in community intervention the last couple of years called the Redirection Program and what it does is provide in-home counseling for folks that where they're having some family difficulties and that was supposed to expand this year by $6 million.  $3 million has been cut out of it.  But, one of Secretary McNeil's priorities is prevention and so while I believe that there are some, to come up with $39 million, it's not real easy to do so all areas are impacted; there is some softening on the upfront that I do believe that, I'm not sure if CINS/FINS (Children in need of services/Families in need of services) was totally spared but their budget reduction was reduced and they also talked about some PACE (Practical, Academic Cultural Education) programs and of course that stuff programs we have statewide that deal with girls only so we're trying to find some programs that will deal specifically gender so I will, and again, the document that we have is only as good as the day it was printed because things change like hourly but I can get you the information probably at least a week or so old.

 2:32:19 PM

McClintock

Some of you’ve heard me mention this before, if they cut back far enough…I don’t know if the state realizes that, remembers that we’re the tipping point and if they cut back far enough they’re going to lose the possibility of federal backing funds, funds that they have us match from the Feds.  If they’re not assessing so many funds to it, then we’ll lose the funds, too.  That would be a killer.  Also, are they aware that places like and I’ll use as an example, San Antonio Boys Village.  It’s still operating on funding that they appropriated on 1984.  That’s horrible.  They’ve increased the number of boys that they have to take care of there.  I mean, I know you know.  And what do they do?  They have to cut back on a daily, weekly, monthly, annually basis but now, we’re going to cut them back some more.  We’re going to reach the tipping point where they going to say we just cant do it any more.  And we’re going to lose them.  And we’re going to lost PACE if we keep messing with that.  These are successful programs.  If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.  I know it’s not your fault.

 2:33:26 PM

Niermann

And statewide, you know, unfortunately the economy is slowed pretty significantly.  I know if anyone in here is trying to move some real estate you’ll find the impact on that and the money is just not being generated so unfortunately it’s…and again if we don’t have an impact with the youth in the juvenile system, they’re going to corrects.  Now, corrections has been, you know, they’re affected to.  Corrections actually has where they are proposing to eliminate 172 adult probation officers statewide.  Now, you k now, that’s a pretty significant blow, too, so it’s a situation is I don’t think any agency or department is going to come out unscathed as well with, you know, the counties and the cities.  In the past six weeks or two months we’ve been just reading about reductions, reductions, reductions.

 2:34:23 PM

McClintock

And also it was my understanding that the possibility of when they cut back on the CINS/FINS that they’re going to take that fund and put it into some real tough areas.  Like, I will use as an example only, South St. Pete, Liberty City of Miami and those areas which we can probably save six or eight or a hundred kids, but if we take it away from CINS/FINS, they we may be losing 850 or 8,500, I have no idea what the numbers would be, but it’s well spent, needed money, but it’s being taken from Peter to, robbing Peter to pay Paul

 2:35:00 PM

Niermann

I have not seen the  most recent, cause I knew that CINS/FINS was going to be impacted very significantly like you mentioned, Paul, and it’s my recent information that it’s been revised and they’ve been spared quite a bit.  And you’re right, if you don’t, the earlier you intervene with the youth, the more successful the youth is going to be.  If you wait ‘til they get into multiple offenses, get in our commitment programs and stuff like that, there’s the likelihood of being able to have them totally squared away lessens.  So, we’re on guard.  I’m not going to take up the rest of the board meeting with the woes of DJJ, but we’re definitely on guard.  We have, we’re very fortunate in this Circuit in it’s public record but we have two detention centers, we have two PACE Programs, one in Pasco, one in Pinellas and a detention center in Pinellas and Pasco.  We’re pretty well off in the Circuit and that’s a direct result of all the hard work of everybody here.  And all the advocating and lobbying throughout the years.  So, you know, I’ve not heard where we are going to be closing anything in the Circuit, so that’s a good thing. But we have to also be sensitive to areas, for instance, Key West detention.  It’s only ten beds and you say well why do you need it?  Well, it’s an eight-hour drive from Key West to Miami.  So when a youth is detained, they’re put, well they used to be put in a little room down on the first floor of the jail or whatever.  They’re put in a van the next day and driven eight hours to the Miami detention center.  So now you know there’s a proposal to close that down.  Will they survive?  Yes, they will.  But the logistics involved…Now they’re threatening gas is going to go over $3.00 a gallon and just transporting, just the issues of transporting.  O there’s a lot of detriments there and I k Know Mr. Uliasz is here with us today from Pinellas detention.  I don’t know, Jim, if you have any other updates from the detention world or as far as you know any thoughts that anyone has put out there…

 2:37:20 PM

Uliasz

From audience: Nothing other than we’re waiting to see how the special session turns out and the effect…(inaudible)…in our area…(inaudible).

 2:37:34 PM

Taylor

One thing that should be noted that I don’t know if you are experiencing here in Pinellas but as far as Pasco goes, our statistics indicate that more children are not scoring for the home detention, they’re scoring to the JDC so we definitely need some money and facilities available for those children.

 2:37:57 PM

Niermann

And prior to adjudication, all the citizens of Pinellas County pay for detention stays, all the citizens of Pasco County, every county in the state except for the real, real small counties where they just can’t afford it and then the State helps them out, but you’re a county the size of Pinellas or Pasco, all the citizens are paying for every kid’s stay up until the point of adjudication.  After adjudication if they’re detained and the State takes over.

 2:38:28 PM

Plyer

Are there any plans that you’re aware of of the Blueprint Commission asking for input from the boards and councils?

 2:38:40 PM

Niermann

I have t look this over.

 2:38:45 PM

Lenderman

I’ve never worried about us waiting to be invited to make input.  I think we can make input any way we darn well please whether it’s in writing or verbally at those meetings and I hope we would.

 2:38:58 PM

Plyer

I’m just curious that here is a source of information and I was curious that the board may not have or that the Blueprint Commission hasn’t tapped.  Were you aware that the budget for travel and expenses for the Blueprint Commission and for its staff is $400,000?  In a time of budget cuts and…

 2:39:28 PM

Niermann

It’s my understanding that they received a grant to be able to fund that and I don’t, just glancing at that, I don’t see a topic that’s totally dedicated to boards and councils, but again, there’s a chunk of time at every meeting that they’re having for public input and I think that probably would be a good venue to pass along your thoughts.

 2:39:57 PM

Pound

Excuse me, can I ask a…Dave, did you say $400,000?

 2:39:59 PM

Plyer

Yeah, um hum, yeah…

 2:40:04 PM

Simpson

This is probably a time for me to tell you that those providers who received a grand from you, from this council, in July have not been paid.  Although we hired the personnel, we’re serving the children, but none of the grants, we have five grants with the Department of Juvenile Justice, two are through OJJDP but administered through the State level and since that’s about $35,000 a month for our five grants, two of them in Pasco, two in Hillsboro and one in Polk and it’s getting to be to the point where meeting payroll is very difficult for us as a large agency so I can imagine how it is for smaller agencies how they’re feeling that.  I do know that Alvin Martinez the chair of the Hillsboro has taken it upon himself to be their voice.

 2:41:10 PM

From Audience Unidentified

Unfortunately we are aware of the situation as far as paying the providers.  As far as what happened is that normally we would have the agreement signed by the grantor by July 31.  Unfortunately, that didn’t happen.  A lot of the agreements they came in late. The Secretary didn’t get a chance to sign off on them until the end of July or possibly August.  Therefore you start looking at the contract.  Technically we’re not supposed to pay until your agreement has been has been.  What we’re basically trying to do is accept so then that way we will be able to go ahead and pay everybody.  So you are going to get paid.  Unfortunately, it has been a delay.  And one of the things I will mention to our office is to go ahead and send letters out to the providers basically explaining what happened so that you can anticipate when you will actually be paid for the months of July and August.

 2:42:13 PM

Simpson

And it will be retroactive?  This is the first time in the history of our agency that we had to take out a line of credit in order to meet payroll.  It’s not only DJJ which accounts for $35,000, but also we have a very large Department of Education grant that provides for mentoring in schools which is also $32,000 a month of revenue that we are not receiving so just a very big hit and I just think of the small agencies.

 2:42:49 PM

Lenderman

Just a little peripheral to this, Mr. Chairman, but besides the Blueprint Commission on which we have two members, there’s also the Children’s Cabinet that was enacted by the last legislature and Gay Lancaster, the Executive Director of the Juvenile Welfare Board of Pinellas has been appointed representing all of the children’s councils by the state and given that the Juvenile Welfare Board’s priorities include having kids ready for school and keeping them in school as well as safety net programs, it may be very helpful to get any of our priorities through them as well, maybe hitting it in both directions.  I know the Secretary of DJJ is also a member as is the DCF Secretary, so I would like to make sure that our input at least is made known to Gay and I think to the Children’s Cabinet as well.

 2:43:54 PM

Harris

Any other comments?  Okay, on old business we have two items.  First is Mr. McClintock, you had an item on the by-Lays that you wanted to bring forward at this time

 2:44:06 PM

McClintock

Yes, I would like to bring that forward but I don’t know what the results from department were...

 2:44:16 PM

Harris

 Well, we can...the bylaws are ours; and so if we want…if they are amended and we would do that through two meetings and they we would send the amended bylaws to them.

 2:44:29 PM

McClintock

I would move to amend them as I proposed at the last meeting.

 2:44:31 PM

Lenderman

Remind us again.

 2:44:44 PM

Harris

Would you read that?  You’ve got your copy there? A copy of the by-laws?

 2:44:45 PM

McClintock

No I don’t

 2:44:45 PM

Lenderman

I have a copy here.  I just can’t remember the exact wording that we talked about.

 2:44:54 PM

Harris

We were talking about under officers, in the by-laws there were term limits for officers and that the officers could only serve two terms and Mr. McClintock was recommending that there be, because the membership, there are no term  limits for members but there were term limits for officers and he was recommending that the term limits for officers be removed.

 2:45:27 PM

McClintock

That is my recommendation.

 2:45:27 PM

Harris

All right.  Discussion?  Mr. Plyer.

 2:45:28 PM

Plyer

Before we get much further with it, article seven of bylaws...amendment to the bylaws shall be made at the discretion of DJJ with sufficient notice for boards to review and adopt the revision.  Somehow thirty seconds at this meeting is not sufficient time to even come up with the words for the motion let alone do it.  Now you smile and...

 2:46:02 PM

Harris

Yes, because you don’t even listen; you already have your positions stated and you don’t even listen to hat's being said.  Now, what did I say?  I said that he was going, that we wd do this over a two-meting period.  That he was going to state what his suggestions were.  We were going to submit those and then bring them back to the next meeting.  That was what I said.

 2:46:27 PM

Plyer

That was what you said at the last meeting.  You said exactly the same thing.

 2:46:28 PM

Harris

But we didn't do them at the last meeting, did we?

 2:46:31 PM

Plyer

No, between the last meeting and this meeting you were going to go to DJJ with the words and come back with recommendation.  So we're going to postpone this again.

 2:46:43 PM

McClintock

I believe that recommendation was going to be for the four additional board members but for this one because it’s one of our by-laws, we made the determination, we gave the due notice at the last meeting, and I believe we’re qualified to take a vote on it today

 2:46:44 PM

Plyer

I've never seen the words tot he motion.

 2:46:46 PM

McClintock

The words to the motion are we remove the term limits for...

 2:46:47 PM

Plyer

With sufficient, with sufficient... oh thank you very much...show me the amendment...

 2:47:13 PM

Corry

Shouting from the audience:  Show me the amendment, show the amendment, the way uncorrupt people do it…

 2:47:16 PM

Plyer

And anybody here who would like to read them and understand the language ought to have the opportunity to see it before they sign off on something that they haven’t read.

 2:47:31 PM

Corry

Shouting from the audience: Like the Jim Smith land deal. 

 2:47:33 PM

Harris

The suggestion, what he is suggesting is that under article two, section a general, where it says it lists who officers shall be and then it says officers shall serve a two-year term not to exceed two consecutive terms effective July 1 of each year and what he is asking is that you consider that we remove the limits on that, that a term would be for two years but that there would not be any limits on that.  That was what…now this is your time to discuss it…whether or not we need to try to move forward with that.  And I’m taking that that you don’t like that so tell us why.

 2:48:24 PM

Plyer

Well, again, it would be reasonable to have the language of the motion presented to the members with sufficient notice that they can review it and come prepared with thought out comments.

 2:48:44 PM

Harris

Now he was not making that in the form of a motion.  This was the time to discuss that and then anybody who…

 2:48:45 PM

Corry

Shouting from the audience: He just made a motion.  You're not listening...

 2:48:53 PM

McClintock

My motion is without a second yet, so…

 2:48:58 PM

Plyer

So, there is no motion on the table.  We are just discussing.   So I guess that makes a difference.  Now my reason would be why do we need these extra people?

 2:49:15 PM

Harris

We're not talking the board increase now.  We are talking about the bylaws for officers.

 2:49:24 PM

Plyer

Okay; so we're now on the topic of removing the term limits.

 2:49:28 PM

Harris

That's the topic we've always been on.

 2:49:29 PM

Plyer

Why?  What's the urgency to remove the term limits?  I don’t…term limits have been place.  Term limits are in place for our other representatives in Congress.  They seem to work just fine. And term limits here gives us an opportunity to change horses as time goes by, gives fresh opinions, new blood to the leadership of the organization so i would be opposed…

 2:50:08 PM

Simpson

Well, Dave, we’d still have that option, would we not to change them.

 2:50:10 PM

Harris

Mr. McClintock were you raising your hand?

 2:50:19 PM

McClintock

No, I was not, Mr. Chairman.

 2:50:24 PM

Harris

Any other…Mr. Roche?

 2:50:26 PM

Roche

I was just trying to get clarification on why this is being done.  If it has, did you say David, this is the way it has been...

 2:50:41 PM

Plyer

I guess it would be more to Mr. McClintock to answer why he believes this is necessary.

 2:50:49 PM

Lenderman

It’s my understanding is it just gives the board a greater degree of freedom to select its members and not be forced into a change that may not be desired.  So, again the choice is still there but it's not a mandatory change.  That’s all that that would do.  That’s my understanding

...

 2:51:07 PM

McClintock

I couldn’t have said it better.  Thank you.

 2:51:10 PM

Harris

And term limits have not always been a part of the bylaws.  They were added about four years ago, three years ago...not always a part of that.

 2:51:25 PM

Roche

And that addition approved, set forth, by the board?

 2:51:32 PM

Lenderman

I cannot remember the circumstances on that...

 2:51:33 PM

Harris

I cant either but, who brought that forward...

 2:51:39 PM

Taylor

I just wanted to make a comment.  As far as what Terry said, we do have the option after each term to then determine if we want to keep the individuals in place.  Members of Congress and members of the Senate are elected every certain number of years.  They do not have a term limit.  The only term limit is the President, himself.  So., I’m in agreement that there really doesn’t seem to be a necessity to have a term limit in the by-laws

 2:52:13 PM

Harris

So, what we will do is we will give you...any other comments on this?

 2:52:15 PM

Roche

I'm a pro term limit guy, so from the Dogcatcher to the President.  I believe in it, but i would really like to know the history of why it became a change.  Why it was changed to term limits and if it was such a point then that you thought term limits were needed, what has changed, what has stopped, and that's back to the original question, why?

 2:52:45 PM

Corry

From the audience:  Tim, give the background, how long Calvin has sat as Chair of this board.  It has exceeded the by-laws’ term limits...

 2:52:52 PM

Harris

Actually, even though you are not a member of the board, that is not true. 

 2:52:57 PM

Corry

From the audience...: Yes, it is.

 2:52:57 PM

Roche

I would just, my point is just that before a vote i again, I'm a term limits person, I would like to know what brought this board to make the change to begin with and a equal argument, if you will, as to why it would need to change.; I haven't seen that yet...

 2:53:17 PM

Harris

I think that when the first by-laws were done, in an effort to get some uniformity with the boards certain items were put in at the behest of the State and then all of the boards were asked to adopt those by-laws and then make any changes that they need necessary at the local level and some of this language that was put in was from a template from the state and the terms limits were there and we've always had the opportunity to amend the by-laws except we never until now had reasons to want to do certain kinds of things and, you know, none of this has been about me.  Now i know that a lot of people want to make it about me but this is not about me and I wish we could raise our level of discourse to talk about the kids in Pinellas County who need service rather than coming in...i wonder what we do in our meetings since we never talk about programs, we never talk about kids, we never talk about how we're going to be a part of the solution.  You know the state's looking at taking all of the $1.5 billion shortfall from education, from juvenile justice, and we're talking about nonsense.  We have got to be a part of the solution because one thing that will happen all the time is regardless of where the budgets get cut, we will always find money to build jails and if you build a big jail you will fill it up.  We need to make sure that kids don’t get into situations that ruin their lives just for being dumb or being young and we spend so much time at these meetings and I'm still waiting for the lights to come on and programs and intervention and great ideas to come from Pinellas County that we're capable of and we have got to do it, eventually, we've got to grow up.  Reverend Wright?

 2:55:39 PM

Wright

A couple of things.  I’ll address that in a moment but I'm not comfortable with term limits at this point.  I’d like to see writing, I’d like to see legal opinions about it.  I think that's something that we asked in the last thing that was going to be requested from Tallahassee was legal opinions.  Not their approval, but legal opinions.  And then also I’m uncomfortable with eliminating term limits because again it can be a situation where things are perpetuated and there’s not enough room for change or opportunity to bring in new ideas and fresh ideas.  But I don’t think it’s appropriate to consider voting on this yet without having in front of us the proposal, as amended and that’s my first concern, and the other is we were supposed to have gotten some legal input from Tallahassee, that’s what I understood.  And, to address your other concern, I don’t think there’s a person here, may be coming from wrong sides of the issue on it as to some level, but I think for those of us that put great emphasis on the mechanics of how meetings should be run and how boards should conduct themselves and how councils should conduct themselves, and how these things should operate, are not doing that to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.  We’re doing that because we expect the same thing of our children and our children are punished because they don’t follow the letter of the law and what kind of an example does it set when those in power do not follow the letter of the law?  The other think I’d like to say is there has been positive things that has been brought forth but it's not the same old business of bringing forward programs.  We have been programming people to death.  What we need to be looking at is what we call criminal amongst juveniles, because we have lots of things that are criminalized that juveniles do that should never be criminalized and our particular council brought forward suggestions in relations to school-related arrests and have seen some, at least some positive motion on the part of the school board in relation to that, so i wouldn’t characterize it as we've sat here and done nothing because I don’t think the answer is always programs, programs, programs, because there's a lot of people that don’t belong in the system and there's a lot of abuses that have happened in the system, so if you don’t look at those issues along with good programs, which I agree, good programs should be brought forward from prevention all the way up to incarceration if it becomes necessary, but i don’t think it would be fair to characterize it that way.

 2:58:35 PM

Harris

All right, we're not asking you to vote on anything today.  We are saying that you will get a strike-thru version with the new language and the old language struck through so that you can see that.  And then we will vote it at our next meeting.  Mr. Arnett?

 2:58:52 PM

Arnett

Did you need a motion for that?

 2:58:57 PM

Harris

No, this was just discussion before we move forward to get a feel and it looks like...

 2:59:01 PM

Arnett

So between now and the next meeting we will get a printed version of the revision of this.  Is that before or after it goes to DJJ?

 2:59:10 PM

Harris

It’s before.

 2:59:12 PM

Roche

So it doesn’t have to go to DJJ prior?

 2:59:14 PM

Harris

No.

 2:59:15 PM

McClintock

Then I will withdraw my motion.

 2:59:19 PM

Lenderman

I would like to ask, if I could, that maybe at the next meeting early on so that we have that kind of setting the stage a little bit, a discussion of some of the issues related to delinquency.  I’m not sure I want to hear about programs, per se, of what we’re already doing but maybe more of and understanding…this morning, for example, I think there was an excellent piece in the St. Petersburg Times on juvenile sex offenders and maybe having some more information about the dynamics of that, the family perspective on it, and sort of what needs to be done.  There may be a whole range of some other kind of issues but maybe not so much programs.

 3:00:04 PM

Harris

That was second article they’ve done on that topic and how families…there is nothing,  no support and nothing for them to deal with that and all of a sudden here’s the kid in the home.

 3:00:19 PM

Lenderman

And then you deal with abandonment issues as well because the families are stuck not knowing what to do.  So, I just feel like that’s one area but there’s many dozens of other ones and if at each one of our meetings we had at least some discussion about the issues that affect our families in the circuit, our children in the circuit, and have it right toward the front of the agenda that it would keep us better grounded and why we’re here as a group. 

 3:00:56 PM

Harris

Tim, are you writing this down?

 3:01:00 PM

Niermann

Yes, I am sir.

 3:01:02 PM

Lenderman

And, like I say, not necessarily that subject, but one of them.  Some trends, not just data but some real live stuff.

 3:01:06 PM

Pound

Chairman Harris, as you were speaking earlier about dealing with every time we meet se seem to discuss issues that’s really not focusing on what we’re dealing with, how we as a board are helping our youth of Pinellas County.  And, as Tim Niermann was speaking earlier, he made the statement about getting our children, the younger you can get them the better off the children will be.  And, as a parent representing parents in Pinellas County on this board and also, you know, I would just like to say that from what I’ve watched in the past three years , the way I got o this board was basically getting involved to find out over a situation that I’ve put an article before all of you from the Tampa Bay Sun to show you what’s happening in our juvenile courts system.  Now in the past three years I have been able to document through my getting involved and becoming an activist and finding out what’s going on in the juvenile court system and literally to see what’s going on is t his grab for the money they’re making by these children being brought into the service.  I mean, I presented to the County Commissioners the cooperative agreements between the Sheriff’s Department and the Court System called Cooperative Agreement Contracts.  I presented them, I mean it’s all public record, to show that there’s illegal contracts just to take children into custody.  Now, when these children are taken in and they’re physically abused, raped, and the list goes on and on just with my own kids in the past three years to see that you know the situation.  Me and my wife, we don’t smoke, drink, do drugs and we see our kids for two hours a month and that’s for the best interest of these kids and these kids are going to grow up to be law abiding citizens?  And, so what…I actually have some documentation of people from the courthouse who were going to testify of the abuse system that we have here but for some reason I couldn’t get the voice to work.  I got their faces and them talking but I’m not even getting them to speak so somehow when I was downloading it I had a problem so maybe at the next meeting but what I’m just seeing is that it doesn’t matter what we do here for as far as it goes in legislating and trying to get all this stuff done.  I’m just saying we have to see the judgment we’re bringing upon ourselves in Pinellas County and as a people and there’s things in the scriptures that says when we know the right thing to do and we don’t do it, it says there’s a cause to that, cause and effect, a reaping and a sowing but when you go head and you look and see what’s going on in the juvenile court system and everything is sealed under record, nobody has access to these records, and these children are being abused at the youngest age.  I mean, I had a man call me this past week his daughter at two and a half years old was taken from them under false allegations then she’s raped, at two and a half years old.  See, and this is all documented, this is…Delores Wilson at the Blue Ribbon Committee from the Department of Children and Family over in Tampa with Bob Butterworth and the rest of them, I sent Delores Wilson over to Rhonda Storms office and when she brought out an eleven-year-old girl who came from another foster home where she had rope burns tied on she had a heart attack over at her house at eleven years old and this is in Tampa.  Now, when I put on the website FreeOurKids.com and you see how a nine-year old boy now has a police record because he was taken from his mother, put in a house for three years where this boy was literally tormented and he was breaking in to peoples’ homes while other kids were at school he was out breaking in to peoples’ houses at the age of nine years old and that’s on the website FreeOurKids.com.  He gives the names of the people in the system that he told about this for three years and nothing’s been done.  And so what happens is I have to ask the question why is there not a response and because when I start to look and see the money that’s being brought into I mean there has to become a limit , I mean, it’s amazing how people just want more, and more, and more.  It’s like you know it gets to the place talking about sexual offenders, I mean, the people that I’ve talked to who are who have problems of sexual perversion of children and I asked them, I said what in the world, why in the world would you ever think about having sex with a child.  And, do you know what they’ve told me?  They’ve told me it feels better.  I said, excuse me, it feels better?   How can it feel better?  They said it’s tighter.  Now, can you imagine I get that same response from the homosexual community and these pedophiles tell me it’s based on how it makes them feel. 

 3:06:02 PM

Lenderman

The discussion that we had earlier had to do with children who were abusing other children of their own age…

 3:06:11 PM

Pound

But most of these children are children that have been abused.  They are the produce of abuse and so they are abusing others and that’s what you’re saying.  Se, we’re perpetuating the problem because we’re not stopping it at this one level they you’re moving it up and what happens is we got to get it at the root of the problem, not the surface problem and these little kids, when you take these little children and you see what’s going on at the lower level here, at the I mean we’ve got the three most important people here in our county that can deal with this whole issue.  We’ve got Jim Coats, we’ve got the ruling judge in the juvenile court system, and we’ve got the State Attorney’s Office and this can all come to a stop but when I see when I talk to these parents and I hear false allegations being made and just my own experience we’re not able to present evidence in the court, we’re not able to bring witnesses, we’re not able to get the facts out…we hired Allweiss, Allen Allweiss, who’s a well-known attorney here in Pinellas County, and he’s not even able to present evidence at the arraignment of, um, when he came he said we don’t even know why we’re here.  As he looked at the record he said why are we here, but now they’ve had our kids for three years.  We see ‘em two hours a month and these children have been through every program at seven years old they been through every program.  None of my kids had any cavities when they took ‘em.  Now my son’s got six cavities.  Now my kids have lice in their hair, ringworm on their face.  I had a lady tell me in the court house just a week ago her three daughters were taken from her because one of her kids went to school and had lice in here hair so they took her kids.  Even though it’s like and when you see the situation, I mean, but, I mean, a lot of this stuff can be prevented, a lot of it, but the problem is is we need customers and what happens we’re bringing in customers, but it’s going to bring a judgment upon us I mean the leaders, I mean when you look in the scripture when it says to the men, the Lord God says to the men if you look at the last two verses in the Book of the Old Testament, the Book of Malachi, He said that He will bring a curse on them for not defending the children, for not defending the children, He says he will bring a curse on the men, us, the men.  I mean you see the problems that we’ve got, I mean, it’s just, I mean it’s Pinellas County is in trouble as far as it goes as what’s happening in our juvenile court system.  And so, a lot of us who are here are activists who have experienced, we’ve come to those in authority.  Our job is to build you guys up your, I mean, we’ve elected you, you’ve been elected, you’re here to represent the people and to defend what’s right and so what happens is that sometimes, and I’ve just been since I’ve been on here there’s a lot of struggling going on here over stuff that doesn’t to me it’s like um it’s I mean we’re missing the point, I really believe it, I believe that the situation of what we got going on with our kids, see it says He that formed the eye shall He not see?  He that created the ear, shall He not hear?  He that teaches men knowledge, shall he not know?  See He knows what we’re doing and that’s why we can’t get away with it and in Isaiah He says He has a surprise for the wicked.  And that surprise comes at a time when you don’t even expect it.  He has a surprise for people who do evil, who refuse to do what’s right.  I mean no matter whether it’s for money and when we go ahead and we protect those who do wrong, there’s supposed to be accountability even though they’re in the same office.  I mean, covering for one another what happens is we perpetuate the crime and then everybody becomes, the whole system becomes corrupt, I mean we’re not able to get justice, we’re not able to find out the truth, everything is just, everybody is just fighting among themselves and so what happens as a board we’re here to defend the youth.  I mean, I mean, I mean, true religions defend the poor, the fatherless and the widows.  Not to take advantage of them.  Not to use them for money.  But that’s what we’re here for.  And I’m just telling you if you get a chance just read this article.  I mean I still the questions aren’t going away.

 3:10:10 PM

Harris

Thank you, Mr. Pound.  And when you came to our County Commission Meeting the last time, I read the article.  And, you know, the Commission is not the venue for that but if what you’ve intimated to the reporters and that sometimes, well it’s a newspaper so that’s all I’ll say about that, but the way the system works, you see, I think if you were working through the system to try to answer those questions the way the system works, the answers are supposed to help you because we don’t make any money off of anybody’s kids being taken.  In fact, every time the State does its budget, you know, they send us things that we have to pay for and we would rather be putting our money into other items and some of the things that we have to pay for we have no control over that but it’s not…nobody’s making money off of that.

 3:11:18 PM

Pound

Well Chairman Harris, let me ask you this.  The man who is court ordered to do evaluations for the juvenile court system, I asked him when he was subpoenaed in Court, I asked him how many evaluations have you done in the first three months and he said over 100 evaluations.  I said how much does this court pay you per evaluation?  He said $500.00 per evaluation.  Now, what happens is that, and this is I the juvenile court and it’s ‘um, what happens is there is people that are laundering and making money.  If you look at these cooperative agreements which are supposed to be a separation between the two branches of government, your Sheriff’s Department and your court system, and this isn’t happening when you have contracts that’s a violation of the oath that you have taken to defend the rights of the people.  There is money being made.  There is a conflict of interest.  If there’s not money being made through all these programs, I mean it’s a list of ‘em and I would just have to say for record say listen I’ve been in this for three years and I’ve watched how much money’s been made and it’s criminal.  It’s highway robbery is what it is on the families…

 3:12:18 PM

Harris

If you look at the system and if you look at for instance when the Sheriff got involved in the child protection, that was not a part of his responsibilities.  The State asked him to assume that responsibility.  Now, the contracts that you are talking about were contracts that were written to pay for those services which are above and beyond the duties of the Sheriff.  When the Sheriff became the office in charge of the child protection then they came up with a budget for how much it would cost to perform these services.  And that’s what the contract that you’re reading…it’s not like they’re just making all of this money.  They have to, you’re talking about a whole different set of people that are not deputies that have to perform duties.  You’re talking about transportation for those people.  You’re talking about offices and cell phones, and computers, and so the contracts that you are reading, that’s actually the money to pay for those kinds of services

 3:13:27 PM

Pound

It’s federal grand money.  The problem is is the money isn’t coming from the State, it’s coming from the Feds, so what happens is that this money is coming in and as they cut more of the budget, more and more children are being kidnapped.  Here is a false police report, a false police report.  I’ve given this to Jim Coats at our last, it was not our last, two meetings past I gave him the copy of a false police report where they’ve confiscated people’s kids and nothing’s been done about it.  So what happens is when you take a false that’s a third degree felony.  So what we’re saying is this whole board has been established for a check and balance system in the juvenile court system.  The State of Florida seen listen, we have a problem because those who’ve been hired to do their job, these children are being abused, they’re being beat, they’re being raped, they’re being molested.  I mean they’re being violated, the children are.  So that’s what the…

 3:14:12 PM

Lenderman

Certain of is a dependency system, and they there’s the delinquency system.  This board only has responsibility and authority to deal with children who are charged with crimes and so I’m not sure…it doesn’t mean we don’t have opinions and that we aren’t also out there acting as advocates for kids and their families, but the primary thing has to do with when children are charged with crimes and…

 3:14:42 PM

Pound

What I’m saying is if you abuse them, if you take a nine-year old boy and handcuff him to a bed and this goes on for three years and now he’s charged with a record, this boy now at eleven years old if you watch the website he gives the name of those who work in the system who he told personally at the age of nine to eleven years old what was going on and nothing was done.  Now, Tim mentioned the earlier you get them, the better off it would be, so what happens

 3:15:02 PM

Lenderman

We’re certainly very fortunate here in Pinellas County at least where the Juvenile Welfare Board has established its priorities to address prevention of abuse and to help children be ready for school and to stay in school.  This isn’t doing educational programs, it’s doing character-building programs, family support programs, it’s doing counseling, it’s all the kinds of services that are needed and we’re very fortunate ‘cause we have those.  Most counties do not.

 3:15:35 PM

Pound

Well let me tell you this, if my kids have been to the doctors under the care of the State over 100 times and the guardian ad litem, the State Attorneys and those in the court system, when the judges will not, when you bring in documentation and evidence and show your children are being physically abused and they don’t do anything about it, then it’s obvious that they’re not doing their job, they’re not protecting, okay, and so what

 3:16:01 PM

Harris

Mr. Pound, I don’t want to appear insensitive, I’ve listened to you and Ii can feel your pain and I…I still would like for you to meet with James Dates from our Justice Coordination Office who spends a lot of time working on these kinds of issues so that he can help you get through the system to get answers to your questions because unfortunately we can’t answer them and then we only have the article and what you’re saying.  We don’t have anything to go on and we just can’t interject ourselves into what is a court matter and a private matter.  We want to be supportive of you…

 3:16:51 PM

Pound

I’m just talking about us as a people here representing the juvenile court system in Pinellas County.  Our Case Manager was arrested for falsifying 26 cases, Megan Gallagher.  She worked for DCF. She was a (unintelligible) agent for the under the Sheriff’s Department, for Jim Coats.  She did 26 of these, 70 counts of grand theft, 26 counts of third degree felonies.  And she did not time.  She done no time whatsoever.

 3:17:13 PM

Roche

Well, I think, and maybe t his helps to a solution that involves the board, Mr. Pound, because indeed under our purposes, yes, we are collaborative with DJJ and the legislative program improvement policy changes.  So, if you, in this experience, have come pinpointed something, perhaps from a program improvement or policy that needs to be looked at or changed or addressed, you can certainly put that down and bring it to a board’s meeting and if we can look at it an dif we move to put it forward to perhaps DJJ to look at…

 3:17:50 PM

Harris

And you’re a member of the Pinellas Council and God forbid they talk about something of substance.

 3:17:57 PM

Pound

Well then maybe we need to get a council of people who can mediate who are not being paid who do not have a conflict of interest because they’re working for the government, but who will actually when there is a problem in the court system they can go there and they have the authority and the jurisdiction to go in and to get the documentation to find out what is the truth here, what really happened, not covering up the lies, not covering up because we got more customers, we got more children that we can bring into the service and get more federal grant money for

 3:18:23 PM

McClintock

Mr. Chairman, in the interest of the board can we move on the agenda, please?

 3:18:31 PM

Unidentified

From the audience:  comment on that please…

 3:18:36 PM

Harris

Mr. Pound, you mentioned guardian ad litem and one of the reasons the courts will appoint a guardian is to protect the interests of the children.

 3:18:50 PM

Pound

Well, we watched a guardian ad litem watch our children go to the doctor over 100 times.  We watched the children literally so abused to the place where we just cannot believe how the guardian ad litem system can be saying that they’re watching out for the best interests of these kids.  When our kids…see our children for two hours a month, over a dog bite, over someone else’s dog biting on  of your kids, see your kids for two hours a month…

 3:19:09 PM

Harris

Have you met with James Dates or anyone from his staff?

 3:19:17 PM

Lenderman

He was actually here earlier in our meeting but he had to leave…

 3:19:20 PM

Harris

Before you do I will get you a phone number for him so that you can make an appointment and you can deal with some of this and we can see if we can help you our.  All right, Reverend Wright?

 3:19:31 PM

Wright

I understand the point because many, many years ago they were together, DCF and the Department of Juvenile of Justice, in fact I worked for HRS back then.  It is still nonetheless I think pertinent in that, the point I think that Greg was bringing up is that you have children that have been abused in the system as children before they’re ever adjudicated delinquent who because of the abuse they faced in foster homes, become delinquents and then, cause you were talking about early prevention, then they end up in the system and it starts a whole  vicious cycle and I think it is important that…because I remember at least one thing was god about when the both departments were together is there was more interchange between the departments and more of a cooperative understanding of the issues and how one affects the other.  Now that there’s separate departments there isn’t…because we have saw fit to look at juvenile criminal behavior as criminal behavior and not as behavioral which is what we did back when it was HRS.

 3:20:45 PM

Lenderman

Some of us would agree.  We worked down the hall from one another.  I headed up Mental Health and Substance Abuse, Tim was Juvenile Justice, and in between us was the dependency staff and there was closer communication and we forced cooperation in terms of single mission but the Legislature chose to separate all of these things out and then went even further to privatize or at least outsource the child dependency, the investigation part as well as the services and I think we’ve had a great loss as a result of despite people trying their level best to do a good job in each one of those areas.

 3:21:31 PM

Wright

And that’s where the money comes into play is where what I think Greg is talking about is private contractors that can get away with charging this kind of  money to see a child for psychiatric issues and that’s part of what you’re talking about and I don’t see it as unrelated because it is all connected.  What we can do as a board, I understand, is limited because we are limited by the mission to what the state has said the Circuit Board can do in relation to directly DJJ things, but I think early intervention and more communication with the Department of Children and Families is important and I also think that the Sheriff intersects both because the detention centers are under their jurisdiction …

 3:22:24 PM

Niermann

No, no, no, no, their still under the State but you’re right the Sheriff, his employees, contracts with the Department of Children and Families for the operation of child abuse investigation.   Not statewide, but just in this circuit, Pasco Sheriff’s office does and the Pinellas Sheriff’s office does

 3:22:41 PM

Wright

And they’re also over delinquency issues as they relate to county…

 3:22:47 PM

Niermann

Well, they used to operate boot camp, but now that’s closed.

 3:22:48 PM

Lenderman

But the Sheriff’s Office does do the arrest of children for delinquent acts, so that’s obviously a major reason why he is a member of this board.

 3:23:00 PM

Gross

Mr. Chairman, if I could have a point of privilege because I unfortunately had this scheduled from 2:00 to 3:30 and I have to leave but I want to make a couple of points and report a few matters to the other members of the Commission.  First of all, the only way I had this meeting on my calendar was because we set this date at the last meting.  There was not any follow-up and we had talked about meeting in Pasco County so if we could get notice out as well as the location including the minutes in advance I’d appreciate it.  There was a lot of discussion at the last meeting particularly by the Pinellas Juvenile Justice Council about in school problems and I simply want to report that this is an issue that the Circuit Court as a body is extremely interested in and has also worked with the School Board and there’s actually been a focus on the “juvenile crime” that’s alleged to occur at the three emotional behavioral disorder school centers.  A meeting took place on September 14 chaired by Judge Fleming.  The court’s behavioral staff, the Public Defender, the State Attorney, Department of Juvenile Justice, the Juvenile Diversion Program and members of the school system, specifically principals, behavioral management school resource officers from these three schools were all present.  The purpose of the meeting was to try and educate the school side on the issues that develop simply by bringing children into the criminal justice system, how they’re treated, what we are actually capable of doing and frankly are there alternatives to doing it.  The short-term goals of this collaborative effort include increased communication between the schools, the juvenile justice system and court personnel, as well as preparation of a collaborative, informative presentation for the teachers at these three schools, and the school resource officers, and the long-term goals are to include identification of resources and services to meet the needs of these emotionally challenged students, both in the schools and in the juvenile justice system.  This is an area where there appears to be a uniformity of interest between this board, the council and the court system.  I just wanted to report that we are working on this because we see some of the same things that have been reported.  We’re trying to divert these cases from the justice system and I think it’s important that all the parties are aware that there are people out there working on these issues.  Other than that, I’d save any of my other comments until the next meeting.  Do we know the date of the next meeting?

 3:26:33 PM

Niermann

Typically the board meets in January, April, June and September and we really have been not, we didn’t do a good job this year of meeting in Pasco County, so it would be my offer to the board that at our January meeting if we could try to get back to the point of alternating if that’s the board’s desire.  Once we meet in Pasco we would have to have someone from the Pasco group, or anyone, really, record some minutes, ‘cause we have to have minutes recorded at our meetings.

.

 3:27:13 PM

Harris

And that was why we skipped the meting, Judge Gross before you go if I could get your e-mail address on the roster so that we, because we did not have an e-mail address for your and I guess we had called to get it and did not get it and so you might not have gotten the notification because they all are coming electronically rather than through the mail.

 3:27:36 PM

Lenderman

I just want to say, too, that we meet the third Monday of each of these and I know the third Monday of January is Martin Luther King Birthday and we always move that one I believe is it the fourth Monday?

 3:27:52 PM

Harris

We’ve gone both ways depending on the schedules of the members and so we might have to poll you unless you want to set that before we go today also.  I know a lot of times having our calendars for that far in advance is a little tough. 

.

 3:28:19 PM

Waters

And Judge Gross, I did contact your JA and left her two messages but I didn’t get a return call.  Is there a restriction on her calling long distance?

 3:28:29 PM

Lenderman

Should we then get back with you Lavetta if we have a strong preference for the second or the fourth Monday instead and then you’ll set it based on the info from everybody?  And we’re going to assume that it’s going to be in Pasco at this point?

 3:28:44 PM

Harris

Well we have to you know, the minutes, having accurate minutes has been tough for this group and Tallahassee has said that their staff members are not the secretary for the group and they are not supposed to take the minutes and so one of the reasons we’ve been having it here is that the Clerk has staffed that function for us and we’ll need to see if we can get that done in Pasco so that we can get minutes

 3:29:41 PM

Gross

At this time, 3:29 P.M., Judge Gross left the meeting.

 3:29:43 PM

Harris

Now, when we talked about, in the bylaws when we talked about expanding the board, one of the elected members that we can add is from labor and one of the reasons that we talk about people from labor, we all know that with these kids a big part of the problem with kids going into the system is just a lack of resources and Worknet has some of the responsibility, sometimes even though they didn’t have it last time, money for youth employment and so we went to the Worknet board to get a member so that we could be a part of the collaboration, and when we’re trying to work with kids we can get information out, we can have job training for kids and make sure that there are other opportunities for kids that we can help them and the Secretary for the WorkNet board is Dr. Tony Leisner…

 3:29:55 PM

Leisner

Actually, Treasurer, but it doesn’t pay any better.

 3:29:59

Harris

Okay.  I’m sorry.  The Treasurer, who has agreed to serve and has volunteered to serve on our board and so this is Dr. Leisner here now, and if you would like to say anything, Tony…

 3:30:41 PM

Leisner

I would indeed.  Actually, I was delighted to hear about the kind words for PACE.  I am Secretary of the PACE Board of Directors for Pinellas and I’m on the state board for PACE also for the 18 centers and we’re well aware of the money challenge.  We’re currently raising through donations, garage sales, 20 percent of our operating budget now an din order to pay for mental health counseling and some of the things that just would not be affordable.  I have a…I have to tell you my wife is here because when I told her that I was coming here  she said no, it can’t be, he must have a girlfriend.  He wouldn’t go there, so I have a witness here that…

 3:31:01 PM

Harris

And we get that a lot.

 3:31:12 PM

Leisner

Yeah, so at any rate I have a long-standing interest.  At Worknet we’re doing summer youth programs, we’re now finding mentors for a couple of hundred kids that are aging out of foster care which puts them in a very, very vulnerable position.  Suddenly, the roof is gone and so we’re providing mentors in that which is a nice, low-cost way of personalizing some of this preventative and I certainly appreciate being at least considered for this  I think it’s a good fit for the several organizations where I volunteer and send money

 3:32:18 PM

Harris

Anybody on the Board have any questions for Dr. Leisner?

 3:32:27 PM

Lenderman

Just curious.  Doctor of…?

 3:32:32 PM

Leisner

I have a Ph.D. in public policy.

 3:32:39 PM

Lenderman

Excellent.  Even that adds more to your qualifications.  I’m delighted.

 3:32:44 PM

Plyer

I do not have a question for Mr. Leisner.  I do have a question for the Chair.  Under what authority is Mr. Leisner a member, and when I use the word member that by definition is a voting person at this table.  Mr. Leisner comes with all the credentials of an expert consultant, a witness.  If we need his input he would be an excellent consultant, but at this time to use the term member would be incorrect.

 3:33:20 PM

Harris

At this time we are going to have a roll call vote to vote on his membership on this Council.

 3:33:34 PM

Plyer

 I'm reading to you from the Florida Statute…

 3:33:36 PM

Harris

And I'm reading to you from the By-Laws.  The By-Laws says when it talks about membership, “The Board may elect to enlarge its body by three members referred to herein and collectively as elected members to adequately reflect the diversity of the population and community organizations or agencies in the Circuit as set forth in Florida Statute 985.4135 and the Board may consider the election of one member to represent each of the faith and the business community,” and he certainly does fit that category and that’s why he is being considered.

 3:34:17 PM

Plyer

That talks about the ability to enlarge the number of members at the table.  Board members.  It does not address how those people become members

 3:34:30 PM

Lenderman

 It says the board will elect.

 3:34:34 PM

Harris

And so we're going to have an election right now.

 3:34:35 PM

Plyer

No, we're not.

 3:34:37 PM

Harris

Yes, we are.

 3:34:38 PM

Pound

Point of information.  When was a nomination, when was a committee formed to nominate him?

 3:34:42 PM

Lenderman

It doesn't indicate that there needs to be one.

 3:34:43 PM

Harris

We said, we talked about this at the last meeting.  We said we were going to do this.  This is not a surprise.  And we also asked you if you had members that you wanted to nominate you could send those forward.  You know, I mean, this I what we are talking about.  We spend so much time with process and being obstructionist, if we spent as much time on trying to help kids…

 3:35:12 PM

Pound

Where's that at in the minutes?

 3:35:19 PM

Lenderman

It's in the By-laws...

 3:35:20 PM

Pound

No, that we discussed this last month…

 3:35:20 PM

Harris

We discussed this last month...

 3:35:21 PM

Wright

It’s in there…

 3:35:22 PM

Lenderman

It’s on page five...

 3:35:26 PM

Pound

Where we wanted to submit nominations...

 3:35:29 PM

Harris

Nobody submitted any nominations.  In fact Mr. Roche said this time that he was going to nominate somebody for the Pinellas Council in those categories, but we talked about enlarging this Board and it’s in the By-Laws, as so that’s a non-issue

 3:35:53 PM

Plyer

Yes, it is an issue.  Let me read to you Article 2, Board Membership, Section A, Board Composition, Item Number 5:  “A maximum of 18 members appointed selected by the local Juvenile Justice Council, except as provided in Subsection 829 of Florida Statutes 985” and that should be changed to 664 from 4135, “if county councils are not formed within a Circuit, the Circuit Board may establish its membership in accordance with Subsection 10 of Florida Statute.”  There are councils.  The councils elect the members. 

 3:36:43 PM

Harris

Read the next statement, read the next one, read number 6.

 3:36:47 PM

Plyer

“The Board may elect to enlarge its body by three members” and that’s fine

 3:36:55 PM

Harris

That's what we are attempting to do now.

 3:36:56 PM

Plyer

No what you're attempting to do is seat Mr. Leisner as a board member, and that is not what we’re about.  This board can elect to increase its body by three more human beings.  Who those three are is at the prerogative of the…

 3:37:07 PM

Harris

Of the board…

 3:37:08 PM

Plyer

Of the councils.

 3:37:22 PM

Harris

No, no, no.

 3:37:41 PM

Plyer

The councils.

 3:37:44 PM

Harris

No, no, no.  It says the board, it says the board, it says the board may elect to enlarge its body.

 3:37:46 PM

Plyer

To enlarge its body.

 3:37:50 PM

Harris

By three members.

 3:37:52 PM

Plyer

Then it goes back here and says how that will be done.

 3:37:53 PM

Harris

No, no it does not.  See, now you’re trying to make policy.  Well, okay, now. We have on the agenda we are going to have a vote.  Are there any other questions?  Mr. Roche.

 3:37:56 PM

Plyer

Comments are unintelligible.

 3:37:56 PM

Roche

I was going to say just so I’m clear on what I’m hearing in the discussion is what you’re saying is that the By-laws stipulate that the Board can take a vote to enlarge its body.

 3:38:11 PM

Lenderman

Its members…three members.

 3:38:13 PM

Roche

By three members.  In other words, we could take a vote saying do we want to enlarge our body by three members and everybody says yes.  And what you are saying, sir, is at that point the determination as to who those membership are goes back to the councils?

 3:38:28 PM

Plyer

Correct.

 3:38:29 PM

All

Shouting from the audience; all speaking at once.

 3:38:31 PM

Harris

That is not what it says

 3:38:34 PM

Corry

Shouting from the audience: That's what the law says.

 3:38:41 PM

Lenderman

It says three members, not three seats.

 3:38:45 PM

Pound

This is what I’m talking about.  I mean, we’re not dealing with the issues.  I mean we’re here arguing every time we come to these meetings and we’re not dealing with the issues of the kids being abused.

 3:38:56 PM

Harris

Thank you, Mr. Pound.  Okay, now you can vote, you can abstain, you can do something but we…

 3:39:05 PM

Plyer

I object to the illegal action on the part of the board

....

 3:39:09 PM

Harris

You can object, and you can so stipulate.  If you want to put that in writing, you can, but now we are going to have a vote and it’s going to…

 3:39:19 PM

Corry

Shouting from the audience: This is not the county commission.  More shouting.  All speaking at once.  Unintelligible. 

 3:29:24

Harris

Chair gavels meeting back to order.

Okay…

 3:39:26 PM

Plyer

I want to make my point of order again.  What you are about to embark on is an illegal act according to Florida Statute and our own By-laws.  The By-laws clearly state that a maximum of 18 members appointed by the local Juvenile Justice Councils, the maximum number of members that we can have on this board is 21.  Three of those are here by statute.  The other 18 are here by appointment from the County Councils. 

 3:40:11 PM

Harris

Thank you.  I disagree.

 3:40:12 PM

Plyer

There's nothing to disagree on.  It’s the law.  It’s right here in writing…

 3:40:15 PM

Several persons

All shouting at once.

 3:40:20 PM

Harris

Now, how do we want to deal with…

 3:40:22 PM

Plyer

Not illegally.

 3:40:30 PM

Arnett

I quite frankly am stuck because I think that having Worknet here, having a resource here for kids is something that is essential.  I want to do it in such a way that everybody’s comfortable with it.  We’ve got a juncture here where we obviously have folks, we have a need, we want to fill it, but we don’t have any confidence in each other that we’re going to get here between the Councils.  I would like to suggest this.  I would like to suggest that we try once more to get Department of Juvenile Justice to look at this very specific issue and give us a read because if they won’t, then the only other thing we have is a group of the folks on the board here thinking that we’ve moved ahead illegally.  That puts me in a very uncomfortable situation.  And we have another group that sees that we need to expand to get some of these resources to make he connection.  I would like to propose that we formulate and ask them to interpret that section of the statute and that section of the By-laws that they sent down because I think there’s a case to be made on both sides.  And, when there’s a case to be made, you either litigate it or you have somebody give you an opinion on it and agree to go ahead and move forward.  It is vitally important that this Board start composing itself to the point where we can get back to the things that are there.  We don’t even have half the problems we’re about to fact from a resource standpoint.  And while we’re going to worry of the tedium of who’s legal and who’s not, we’re letting resources stand away, stand down from the group.  We have folks that should be here that would be here that are refusing to come, and I think we’ve got to get past that process, and I would like to respectfully suggest to the Chair that we go ahead and have DJJ, although I have to tell you, I haven’t been impressed with their willingness to stand up and answer either Dave Plyer’s questions or Commissioner Harris’s questions.  And it’s like they say, well, jeez, it’s not our problem.  Well, it is their problem.  We didn’t write the law.  They did.  We didn’t actually write these By-laws.  They did.  We agreed to them when there was no contention.  I would like to respectfully ask the Doctor to please come back…I’m going to tell you something, having a vote on this Board ain’t all it’s cracked up to be.  But, having you as a resource here, I think we can all agree is way more important.  I am tired of kids coming back to me that I’ve got in a program that can’t find a job or the only job t hey can find is where the employer abuses them and I don’t mean in the way you’re talking about (to Mr. Pound).  But they are not willing to work all his graveyard shifts.  We’ve got kids that are tested and they can’t make it in school if they didn’t have a job but they’ve got to contribute to the family.  They’ve got to try to feed their brothers and sisters and themselves.  That juncture has got to be addressed.  And there is simply no other entity out there that can do that.  By the same token, we are underrepresented a great deal in some of these populations that are starting to need representation.  It is time we got this question answered because we don’t have a lot of Hispanics on this Board.

 3:43:59 PM

Harris

And according to our By-laws, we can enlarge our board by those underrepresented groups

 3:44:04 PM

Arnett

And I think the way to do that is to have them tell us; see both sides of that question and get it settled.  I want to vote to put these folks on here. I want to do it in a way that everybody feels comfortable doing it.

 3:44:06 PM

Pound

I’ll second that (note there was no motion on the floor).

 3:44:24 PM

Roche

I would mirror Mr. Arnett’s comments.  They were absolutely well put and I’m ready to get this board about the business it's hear to do and we need to resolve these issues so we can move forward.  In addition to that, I would request of Mr. Plyer that you have an immediate vacancy and are meeting on the 27^th, that if need be you utilize that vacancy to place the Doctor because I would like to see him here too.  I think he would be an invaluable resource.  That can happen quickly and he can return to our next meeting as a member, and that’s resolved and in the meantime we get an answer on that and we solve both the problems and et on about the business of impacting the lives of people in this county, the kids in this county.  I’m with you too, and you know me, Commissioner Harris, I am extremely loquacious, and I’ve been holding it for a while, but I am about, it’s time to get on about the business and I think you for bringing it up and being passionate about it too.  It’s time to get on past these things, handle the questions that are being asked, get resolution, hand the documents to whoever wants the documents, and get on about the business that this board was created to do.  And if this can do it with both, then do it both.  Utilize one of those seats to place him because I’d love to see him here as well.

 3:45:32 PM

Harris

Response, Mr. Plyer?

 3:45:35 PM

Plyer

Yes.  Pasco County, for example, is overrepresented in membership here…

 3:45:47 PM

Harris

You're not answering his question,.  He’s not asking you about Pasco, he is asking you...

 3:45:47 PM

Plyer

I'll rephrase it that again if we  look at who can be elected or appointed to this Board, it's people from the Councils, the Councils can appoint members to the Board.  We happen to have a vacancy.  We also have nominees for that vacancy an one of those nominees is not Mr. Leisner.  However, Pasco County I'm still not quite sure what your position is here, on the board, it’s Pasco County…

 3:46:23 PM

Harris

Either you are or your not...there is no need…you see as usual…

 3:46:26 PM

Plyer

We have two members from the Pinellas County Board of County Commissioners represented on this board from Pasco county and…

 3:46:39 PM

Harris

And that's not your concern.  And one of your members asked you a direct question.  All you have to do is answer it.  All you have to do is just stand up for once…

 3:46:47 PM

Corry

Shouting from the audience: So listen to him.

 3:46:48 PM

Harris

You shut up, please.  All you’ve got to do is…one of your members asked you a direct question..

 3:46:49 PM

Plyer

Read my lips.  He is not one of my members.  He is not a member of the Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council.  He is appointed to the Board by the Council.  He has a mind, he has a mouth; he has eyes and ears; he can think for himself and say what he chooses.  He makes excellent points and we will consider it.. I also want to bring to you the attention of Pasco County that it is it has two members from the same organization here.  You may want to consider replacing one of those members with some else, perhaps Mr. Leisner.  I wasn’t addressing you, I was addressing the Pasco.....

 3:47:32 PM

Harris

What are the wishes of the board?  Obviously we can take the advice of Mr. Arnett or we can vote.  It’s up to the board

 3:47:44 PM

McClintock

There's a motion and a second.

 3:47:49 PM

Harris

Okay, what was the motion?

 3:47:50 PM

Arnett

I didn't make a motion.

 3:47:53 PM

Roche

I would motion then that we follow Mr. Arnett’s recommendations and seek clarification so that everyone can move forward on this very comfortably.  I, too, want to accept the Doctor here, I think he is a fine man and I think he is needed.  Love to have him on board but I agree with Mr. Arnett, let’s get it clear.  And if it isn’t clear by virtue of them not wanting to clarify then…and I think we should follow Mr. Arnett’s advice and get this clarified.

 3:48:14 PM

Harris

And eventually we're going to have to make some decisions.  We just cant wait for Tallahassee to decide

 3:48:17 PM

McClintock

And I'll second that motion.

 3:48:32 PM

Harris

Okay, discussion?  Mr. Arnett?

 3:48:33 PM

Arnett

I have to tell you I’ve even gone so far as to think that even though I want them to clarify legally what takes precedence, the statute, give us an interpretation of that section that is under question because we can debate it all afternoon and it doesn’t make any difference all it does is make people feel bad.  I’m not so sure that we should pay any attention all, quite frankly.  If we’ve got kids that are in need I’m so tired of hearing folks argue about who can and who can’t have a say.  I am tired about Tim having to come here year after year and say that somehow or other we’ve decided that we don’t have enough money to take care of our kids.  I’m getting over it.  I’m an old guy.  I’ve been in this business almost 30 years now.  I can’t remember a timeframe when we didn’t talk about kids in this state like they weren’t expendable.  If the house is burning down, do we tell you we’ve got a fire truck heading from Miami, I hope they get t here in time?  And that is the speed at which our kids are deteriorating.  And I have said it before, and I’ll say it again.  The Councils were created and the Board was an adjunct of the Councils to be able to give a voice, to guide DJJ.  Unfortunately, I don’t believe they’ve ever paid much attention to any voice that’s come up there.  But, it’s the only voice that’s out here that’s got a sanction.  And I think a split voice has no resounding sound whatsoever.  So I’d like to move forward, whether we do or we don’t , I would like to invite the Doctor to come back to hear some of the issues really facing these kids, who don’t care whether somebody’s included in a By-law or statute.  They don’t know what the statute is.  The first time it’s explained to them is when they’re read their rights.  I would like to get back to that process.  My boss wants to get back to that process.  I’m sure everybody around here that comes here wants to get back to that process, so let’s once and for all have DJJ say what do you want.  Can we expand it by three?  Does a Council have to appoint it or can the Board elect it?  And then we’ll go with whatever that answer is.  And I hope that the Worknet folks can hang with us until we get past this tedium.

 3:51: 00 PM

Leisner

We actually have plenty of work to do.

 3:51:03 PM

Harris

And I hope that our kids can wait while we play process.  Now we do have a motion on the floor.  All in favor of the motion say “Aye.”  (All but Mr. Plyer vote in favor). All opposed like sign.

 3:51:07 PM

Plyer

Opposed.  I don’t understand what the motion was.

 3:51:16 PM

Roche

The motion is to have put forth to DJJ to have this debate we’re having, whether or not he has to be placed by the Council or can the Board do it, have that clarified.  In particular, I believe it’s number 6 under Article 2 Board Members, to have it clarified as to what that means.  Does it mean the Board can seat or does it mean the Board can expand and then the Council may seat.  That’s what it is.  To clarify that so we can move forward without any…

 3:51:48 PM

Harris

And that motion did pass.

 3:51:53 PM

Roche

I would also like to invite the Doctor back as a guest, pick a name, pick a title, I don’t care, but please do come back and please do stay with us and we will…

 3:52:07 PM

Leisner

Actually, I kind of like the other idea of coming back as a consultant ‘cause then I’d get paid.  I’ve got too many boards with no checks.

 3:52:15 PM

Plyer

The By-laws do allow for an advisory council.

 3:52:21 PM

No Recording

Technical Problem.  Had to turn recording off and back on.

 3:52:58 PM

Pause

 3:53:01 PM

Resume

 3:53:22 PM

Arnett

…the cost that every citizen pays for loss prevention all the way through the process;.  At the end of that, at least the exit interviews that I take from each one of the 600 kids we divert every year, they seem to think that that course had an impact because at least it reversed some of the psychology that was out there.  What I’m concerned with is where is that psychology coming from?  I can understand it...

 3:54:18 PM

Lenderman

That entitlement.

 3:54:22 PM

Arnett

That's exactly what it is.  If it was just our kids who were poor.  70 percent of our kids have the money in their pockets to pay, I think we're going to need to get a regiment that we transmit that there's no reason to give them massive criminal records, because quite frankly they don’t know difference between $299 and $301.  And the difference is grand theft versus petty, and grand theft gets you the big ride all the way through on your record.  And that's the one that any employer looking at it is going to say, wait a minute; what are we going to do.  And stealing from the jewelry counter at Dillard’s you can get to $300 pretty quick, and so I just want to lay that out there.  Our data and our analysis show that that is, and I cannot find a reason for it.  I’ve sat and I’ve talked to the parents until I'm blue in the face.  My Restorative Justice Boards have gone after what do you think and these folks will go out and get in their Lexus and drive away or they will go get on a bus and try to get home.  It just does not follow any of those criteria.  So I’m going to law that out there.  Anyone that's got information on it, Tim I know you are seeing the same thing.  The Judge and I were talking the other day...to that end we have adjusted my compass program.  There are no longer direct cases from zip codes.  We turned money back to Juvenile Welfare Board.  My one senior compass lawyer is going to do nothing but try to divert cases out of high schools, all high schools in Pinellas County.  And the only other kinds of cases they’re taking are retain theft cases and other like trespass nonsense cases that all the diversions are coming through me now.  I have to approve whichever program they get to.  It is huge.  It is absolutely huge…

 3:56:13 PM

Harris

We're going to put this on our January agenda.  And, Paul, I need to take this call.  Can you take over?

 3:56:15 PM

Harris

At this time, 3:56 P.M., Chairman Harris leaves the meeting.

 3:56:31 PM

Lenderman

I just want to say to Vance that I think it's critical to give this the time it's due and this has been too quick today just to tease us with it.

 3:56:36 PM

Arnett

I just gave you the totality of what I’ve been hearing.

 3:56:40 PM

Lenderman

Well, you're going to know more by January and the reason I say I think it's really important is I think merchants have been in the position of not wanting to create criminal records for a kid so they get away with it otherwise they end up with a criminal record.  The choices are not good either one…

 3:56:51 PM

Arnett

I disagree with you.  I think the merchants are they’re making a policy they're going to file that charge, they're going to stay on us and keep filing on it and they get angry at us when we divert…

 3:57:04 PM

Lenderman

Well, I’m just saying that I think that if we have an alternative that actually works, if we have any tracking of recidivists, of kids that have been through that program, then I think we have something we can sell the merchants on.  But I just think we need to know more about how the courts are responding to it.

 3:57:26 PM

Arnett

The courts aren’t responding to mine.  I try not to send them to court.  I mean, our policy in our office is if you can keep that kid out of court with that thing that’s what we’re going to do with it because they’ll look right at you and they’ll claim that they didn’t know it was such a big deal.

 3:57:39 PM

Wright

Vance, is there a disposition difference on the part of the retailers in relation to the economic status of the person?

 3:57:52 PM

Arnett

No.  I have to tell you it’s almost like zero tolerance.  If you’re caught stealing, they have loss prevention folks that they pay for and I’m going to tell you, the digital capability that they have is scary.  I sat and could read the price tags on the merchandise that was being picked up and when I’m at the counter I can’t read it that well. At least my wife thinks I can’t read it, particularly at the jewelry counter.  But, it is something that I have no reason to it, and for my colleagues in Pasco, it's a problem as well.  I just can’t figure out Walmart, Target, Dillard’s, Macy’s, all of them are reporting the same thing.  And the down side of that is that if a group of young people who don’t intend to steal walk through that front door, where do you think that camera goes?  They have to figure out, there are certain behaviors and I don’t even want to call it profiling, Bruce.  I think more of what it is is that they’ve learned the pattern of behavior that’s there because they’ve seen it so much and they’re playing the percentages.  They know exactly where they’re going to be.  Now it’s gotten to the point where I’m in the store, I’m sitting there waiting, I’m looking around for a loss prevention guy ‘cause I figure if I’ve got more than three kids over here no more than 15 feet from me and I’ve been right most of the time.  So, I really think that somebody, and it’s not DJJ because that’s too far at the end of the deal, but somebody needs to, maybe we have (name indistinguishable) come here and talk about how they created a curriculum.  It used to be that kids stole out kids steal for a variety of reasons.  I think if you get to that point you find out why they do some of the other nonsense, nonsensical charges they get involved in.  And I just wanted to put that out there for…

 3:59:37 PM

McClintock

Vance, can we get your program in to the schools?

 3:59:45 PM

Arnett

I don’t think there’s any more room in the schools for anything, if you want to know the truth.  Anything we put in to a school curriculum right now you’re taking away the ability of a child to be able to pass FCAT and get on with their life

 3:59:53 PM

Pound

I was thinking maybe what we could just do is propose to the School Board that if you’ll just put the Ten Commandments that says thou shall not steal.

 4:00:00 PM

McClintock

We can’t do that and I think you know that.  We may or may not agree with you but we can’t do it.  Any other board members have an announcement?

 4:00:03 PM

Harris

At this time, 4:00 P.M., Chairman Harris returned to the meeting.

 4:00:09 PM

Roche

I have a question about some protocol from the Chair or even from the Board.  I have a request to provide a couple of documents that I have no knowledge of and maybe you can ether give me an idea of who to direct it to or how we go about it.  She asked for document stipulating the formation of the Circuit Six Juvenile Justice Board Grant Review Committee for 2007, a document reflecting the 2007 Juvenile Justice Board Grant Committee adoption of the Pinellas County Strategic Plan and the Pasco County Strategic Plan.  I got this via e-mail from Ms. Corry, and she’s here.  I didn’t respond to it because I thought I was only copied on it that perhaps it was something that was going to one of you and it was an informational thing.  Then Ms. Corry came back about ten days later saying I need a response.  I apologized and didn’t realize and told her that and of course per Ms. Corry’s comments and per Lavetta Waters, these questions for these documents must come though this Board.  What I am asking is, what do I do with that?  Do I give this to the Board Chair, do I…

 4:01:28 PM

Lenderman

DJJ is the only one who can give you that information.   Why don’t you just pass that request right down the table and poor Tim has it…

 4:01:42 PM

Harris

And Ms. Corry made that request of DJJ and she got the grants information, she got a letter from them…

 4:01:50 PM

Corry

From the audience.  I got a memo stating that if I wanted any of the documents or had any other concerns or questions, that I am directed to the Board.  I get that memo from the Office of the Inspector General.

 4:02:06 PM

Roche

That’s why I got it and I clarified with Ms. Corry what can I do for you, I don’t have these documents.  And she did say that that came from DJJ…

 4:02:15 PM

Corry

From the audience:  Which I forwarded the document to you…

 4:02:20 PM

Roche

Yeah, I can forward the document to you , Mr. Niermann, and…

 4:02:43 PM

Niermann

Do you want to forward that to me on e-mail?

 4:03:06 PM

Roche

I will do just that so the request is honored and see who needs what and get it to them and go on…

 4:03:08 PM

Niermann

If the request has already hit our headquarters office I can’t imagine the response is going to be any different.  I’ll be more than happy to follow up on that.

 4:03:09 PM

Roche

Who is the keeper of record for this board?

 4:03:10 PM

Niermann

That’s the question you need to ask.  I believe this is inquiring about the grant process…

 4:03:19 PM

Harris

Last year’s grant process, or the one coming up?

 4:03:24 PM

Lenderman

It says ’07.

 4:03:46 PM

Harris

’07, so you mean the new grants process?

:

 4:03:08 PM

Plyer

No.

 4:03:09 PM

Lenderman

The upcoming or the last one?

 4:03:15 PM

Roche

What I have here says, and I’ll just quote it exactly:  “Documents stipulating the formation of the Circuit Six Juvenile Justice Board Grant Review Committee for 2007, document reflecting the 2007 Juvenile Justice Board Grant Review Committee’s adoption of the Pinellas County Strategic Plan and the Pasco County Strategic Plan.” That’s what I have.  For clarification, it came from Ms. Corry.  You asked what it is, that’s what it is as it’s read.

 4:03:48 PM

Harris

Well, the last grants were done in December of ’06.  We have not done ’07 grants.

 4:03:55 PM

Corry

From the audience:  You did ‘em this spring.  Remember that secret thing that you did that you didn’t bring to the Board and the committee was formed in secret.

 4:04:04 PM

Roche

So, I’ll forward it to Mr. Niermann.  And for future reference, if those questions come, am I to direct it to the Chairman or who is the keeper of record…

 4:04:22 PM

Harris

Well, the keeper of record is the Department of Juvenile Justice, but we discuss those grants here and that information is not going to change just because you keep asking it.  I mean, I guess everybody’s got, it’s not going to change when we did the grants, the Chair appointed the Grants Committee and they read the grants and they made their recommendations to Tallahassee and that was that, you know.  You keep asking, but it’s the same thing.  The Council is not the Grants Committee

.

 4:05:03 PM

Roche

Well, not to belabor this, I’m just trying to get to the point of this…

 4:05:10 PM

Pound

Is that request to be passed out to all of us, the Board members?

 4:05:15 PM

Lenderman

Just as Council members can’t discuss among each other at any time that could potentially come before the Council, we can’t, as Board members, you’re familiar with that, that’s why it’s always safe to send it to Tim.  It’s like the old cereal commercial, “let Mikey do it,” you know.  This one is “let Tim do it” and he’ll figure it out from there.  I hate to do that to you Tim, it’s just the cleanest, safest way so that there are no violations of Sunshine by improper communications among members of the same board or council.

 4:05:53 PM

Plyer

Just to close this off, I have asked for board-related documents as a Board Member from DJJ and they’re pleased to do it for $180.00.

 4:06:07 PM

Lenderman

Well, they charge, by law, a certain amount per page/  That’s customary, yeah.

 4:06:15 PM

Harris

They get asked every day.  That’s a part of it.

 4:06:18 PM

Wright

The point of information that’s strange to me is why wouldn’t all the Circuit Board members have copies of all of these committee meetings because we are part of the Circuit Board.  If a Circuit Board decision has been made by certain members and it’s not out in the open to all the others, there should be some documentation that we can see.  I think that’s not an unreasonable request, I mean, you know, if I’m going to be part of something I want to know what decisions have been made by people.  So I think that seems like a no-brainer, really. 

 4:06:54 PM

Harris

Any other new business?  Okay.  Board Member announcements?  Any announcements from any members of the Board?  Okay.  Public Comments?  Any members of the public?

 4:07:06 PM

Dennis Seagall

Yes, my name is Dennis Seagall.  I’m a minister and a school teacher for 40 years, and I’d like to…I felt really good when I heard Mr. Harris last meeting talk how he did about the kids and today he said the same thing, that the main emphasis in this room should be towards the children and I felt good about it.  There’s a bible verse that says if a man says he loves God and he hates his brother, he’s a liar and the truth is not in him.  And I can hear what people say, but many of the kids that come here, I’ve worked with them.  I’ve worked with a young man called Reese Sterns and I say the hurt in him when Mr. McClintock had the audacity to, I mean he loves kids, but the audacity to say about a young man, a teenager, and teenagers can get hurt very easily, that this young man probably who is someone who would shoot up in a school.  That’s loving care?  That’s caring about kids?  Well, I didn’t do much, I didn’t say much, until he wanted to come to the meeting and openly ask for an apology.  At that point I was sure that there would be some apology, some going forth, because this is a young man, this is the people, this is the person that we’re supposed to be fighting for and not speaking against.  But no one stood up, no one said a word, he felt like he was slighted.  And now his mother wants to come to the meeting.  His mother is a paralegal and works in the law office.  And they want to do something about it because you don’t listen to kids.  Maybe you’ll listen to lawyers.  Maybe you’ll listen to something that may hurt you.  And it just hurts me that we speak about caring about kids, but the bottom line is not what we say.  It’s what we do.  Thank you.

 4:09:09 PM

John Feeney

Yes, I do.  My name is John Feeney.  I am a law student.  I want to comment that as a person who is interested in entering the legal profession, I’m not a lawyer yet but I hope to become one, I personally both as a Christian and as a future attorney am appalled, utterly appalled, at what I’ve seen today.  Beyond reason, I feel like Alice going through the looking glass and, you k now, and I’m just, I’m almost ashamed that those persons who are charged with upholding, enforcing and applying the law in our society, and I’m a man who believes in the rule of law, can themselves behave in a manner which is borderline lawless.  Whether it involves abusing children who are incarcerated in the system or whether it involves something as simple as conforming to a statute as a public body in the public interest placed in public trust.  I want to compliment Mr. Vance Arnett from the State Attorney’s Office for the reason that he injected into this board meeting today by suggesting that an interpretation of the law under question at today’s meeting be provided before a vote is taken to find out if in fact the board’s ability to expand it’s membership is pursuant to a statute that provides that councils elect members to this body rather than the board itself arbitrarily choosing who it’s going to elect.  And, I just wanted, I wanted to enter those remarks into the record of this meeting, and thank you very much for your time.

 4:11:14 PM

Harry McKay

I’m Harry McKay.  I’m a representative of We the People, an organization that’s statewide and growing, and the focus is to address attention to constitutional issues and violation of the constitution by the government.  The founding fathers were well-aware of the tyranny of government and how government can easily get outside their bounds and the fourth branch of government is actually we, the people.  We are supposed to keep our elected officials in check and I’m assuming every one of you public officials have taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States against enemies foreign and domestic…so if you come across a situation that is a departure from the constitution, those principles that the founding fathers put in plan to keep this country strong, then you, as a citizen need to bring that up.  Now, I guess the reason that I’m here mainly is Greg came to one of our meetings, we hold once a month meetings in Tampa, we’re growing and got meetings at various locations now.  In fact, I’m on a class action law suit filed with the government, been D.C. three times, about a petition for the redress of grievances where the government is actually telling We The People, no we don’t have to answer your grievance.  Well, that’s a bunch of b..l.  That is not according to what the founding fathers put into the constitution about redress of grievances.  If there’s a redress of grievance by the people, that we have the right to petition our government.  They should respond, we work out the details, why, what’s going on.  Well, the website is www.wtpifl.org.  George Washington made this statement:  “Government is like fire.  Useful in the fireplace but when it gets out of its place it will consume everything you own.”  Very, very insightful.  He knew what he was talking about because they dealt with the tyranny.  Another quote by Thomas Jefferson.  “When government fears the people you have liberty.  But when people fear the government you have tyranny.”  Now, what has happened, I got kind of involved with Greg’s case.  I’m not an attorney, but yet I’ve read the complaint, I’ve interviewed people that knew him before they were married, his wife’s father, and all these people and I mean this is just a bunch of c..p, that’s all I can say, what happened to this family.  Now, as far as juvenile intervention or juvenile delinquency.  You are absolutely correct that the family…The Amish people don’t have a problem with juvenile delinquency, why?  Because they’re tight-knit families.  The role of the father has been superseded or cut amuck.  It’s the role of the father to teach the children I would say God’s principles, in my own opinion.  Thou shall not steal.  All these principles are supposed to be taught.  These children should not be going to schools and having all these problems and not knowing what the basics of what respecting your neighbor is and all this stuff that we’re dealing with after the fact.  Now, if we can stop the, if two out of ten or two out of 20, I don’t know what the figures actually is, children that are taken from their parents, is illegal, is not really constitutional, is bad, just what I feel has happened in Greg’s case, those kids and I read the study are almost like one in three or one in five more likely to have juvenile issues as they’re going in their teen years and problems being an adult because they were jerked from their home environment.  So, my question.  Here’s what I would ask of this board.  One, I have tried to get the procedures, not only for Greg’s case but another case, in the CF Operating Procedures Manual.  There’s a CF Operating Procedure No. 175-34 Removal and Placement of Children.  Under question four here it says general requirements.  Before a child is removed from the home the Department must ensure reasonable efforts are made to prevent the removal and then it quotes SRSOP 175-32 Reasonable Efforts.  Well, I went on the website and it’s right there, but you can’t read the text of what it said, it’s taken off the website.  I’ve been to Kevin Amber’s office.  We’ve asked him directly, what is the procedures for taking a children from the house and we’re going to review that and find out how it applied in Greg’s case and other cases too, ‘cause we’re tired of this.  Now, is there anybody on this board that can help us get that procedure from these people to find out what efforts are being taken, or need to be taken, when a child is taken from their home?  Can anybody do that?

 4:16:22 PM

Lenderman

I would just jump in.  Nick Cox is the Regional Director of the Department of Children and Families and a CF operating procedure is Children and Families, that’s what CF stands for, and he is an attorney and he at one time I believe had been with the State Attorney’s Office as well.  He’ll be very familiar with that.  His office is in Tampa.  I don’t have his phone number but it’s the Department of Children and Families in Tampa.  He name is Nick Cox and he’s the Regional Director.

 4:17:00 PM

McKay

Just one more quick thing.  When a child is taken from the home, in the case of Greg it was one woman’s opinion basically that did that operation.  There needs to be some board, maybe a guardian ad litem, maybe a couple of people, almost like the federal government has to go to a grand jury before they indict somebody for a criminal offense.  There needs to be some stopgap to say, wait a second.  Is this really true.  Do you have competent fact witnessed?  Do you have first-hand knowledge.  Now, obviously if the child has been beat up that’s obviously first-hand knowledge.  I saw it.  He’s taken out.  That’s the way it is.  But in the case of Greg’s case they said well maybe it will happen in the future. In those kind of cases we need something to stop that taking of children which again is going to help the dependency problems you’ve got or the delinquency problems in the future.

 4:17:54 PM

Harris

Thank you.  Any other public comment?  Yes, sir,

 4:17:58 PM

Keith L. Estes

My name is Keith Estes and I am very interested in Greg’s situation.  Before I came here my wife and I spent time in prayer asking God to intervene in some way, so that this family can be reconciled.  It appears that…to change minds and change judges and the adults don’t seem to open the case up again we just accept was all documented prior to that and this is very unfortunate.  I talked with attorneys in this town who wouldn’t take his case because they wouldn’t know where to start.  It is so convoluted that it’s just unbelievable.  If you could write a scenario, you couldn’t write a worse case then this.  I’d be interested in knowing, does this Council, does this Board have any capability of forming a citizen’s group to look into some of these horrendous situations that are happening when people, young people are put in the system.  Now, our good friend tells us here about how well stocked the stores are with their surveillance techniques and they can read the label on something, they know that they’re stealing in the store when they don’t even need the product.  And I think that I would like to ask the question, do you happen to know, sir, do we have any surveillance like that, looking at Greg’s children where they’re being taken care of?  Do we have any right to have any surveillance in there to see what is happening to these people?  I think we need to have one-third of the surveillance that the stores have 100  percent so I am deeply concerned about this and I think I’d like to know, Mr. Chairman, is it possible this Board could have a citizens board with power to ask questions and uh, or do we just need to go in as individual citizens?

 4:20:40 PM

Harris

Actually, the kind of board you’re talking about used to be called the Pinellas Council and it had 50 or 60 members and it had people from all those offices there and that’s what we’re trying to do is create a group that would bring those kinds of people and let them collaborate with us so that we’re not just outsiders trying to get information, but that they would be a part of our network and we could take these kinds of requests to them and some members of this board don’t think that we need a citizens advisory council. 

 4:21:19 PM

McKay

It’s my understanding from Dave we don’t have any power to go out and say I’m a member of the council and we would like to do this or that…

 4:21:25 PM

Harris

We don’t either but what happens is you work with people and you form a bond and it’s a collaboration and then people in different walks of life just cooperate with you because you all have the same common goal, but when you assume that you’re the only one with that goal and you don’t listen to anybody else, you can’t just ask them when you want something.  You’ve got to make them a part of your network and there’s got to be some trust somewhere and all of us have to learn to trust each other and not suspect people’s motives and not always assume that we’re the only one that knows the answer to the question or that we are the only ones involved and that’s what we are trying to do.  We need to have this rise above a personal level and have the broad issue of kids as our objective.

 4:22:19 PM

Pound

Well, after what I’ve experienced, I would not trust nobody in the juvenile court system after state attorneys lying, judges lying, and the abuse my kids have gone through and they’ve covered it up and they refused to look at what they’ve done to our children and I wouldn’t trust not one of them, no one of them.

 4:22:38 PM

Lenderman

You have an attorney, I want to say…

 4:22:44 PM

Pound

My attorney was shot in the head.  Stacey Palmer got shot in the head.  She was working with Judge Fleming, Cindy ???, Mary Ellen Lanes, Susan Williams, William Mahew, the rest of ‘em who brought this case on for several years over an accidental dog bite…

 4:22:52 PM

Lenderman

 4:23:08 PM

Pound

And he was saying excuse me your honor, you’re saying we cannot present evidence?  Are you telling us in court, he comes into the court room he says what are we even here for

 4:23:15 PM

Lenderman

Mr. Pound I’m saying process of law is that there’s two attorneys, one on one side and one on the other.  He understands the process of how you appeal a judge’s decision…

 4:23:25 PM

Pound

There is a problem with the process of law, we the people are being oppressed…rest unintelligible.

 4:23:33 PM

Harris

Is there any other public comment?  Do we have a motion to adjourn?

 4:23:38 PM

Simpson

I make a motion to adjourn.

McClintock

I second that.

 4:23:54 PM

Meeting Adjourned

Stop Recording